Is Gary Hurd fighting another strawman?
Over on the another tired baby crying forum Gary Hurd says that is he is about 100 pages through a manuscript pertaining to the "Darwin=Hitler lie".
Perhaps he meant Darwinism = Nazism, whatever.
In "Expelled" it was made clear that Darwinism did NOT suffice as a cause of Nazism.
A necessary ingredient, but not sufficient by itself.
Is THAT the alleged "lie"?
Or has Dr GH got his panties in a knot over something his little mind twisted into something else?
Perhaps he meant Darwinism = Nazism, whatever.
In "Expelled" it was made clear that Darwinism did NOT suffice as a cause of Nazism.
A necessary ingredient, but not sufficient by itself.
Is THAT the alleged "lie"?
Or has Dr GH got his panties in a knot over something his little mind twisted into something else?
posted by Joe G @ 5:44 PM
30 Comments:
At 6:28 PM,
Rich Hughes said…
I don't the rise of Hitler of the Nazi party is contingent on Darwin's theory at all.
At 7:28 PM,
Joe G said…
Master Race, getting rid of the "sick" and unwanted- the genetically impure, which is all tied to natural selection and survival of the fittest.
Hitler not wanting children because he was "impure" and didn't want to pass that on.
So I guess if I didn't know anything about Nazism nor Hitler, I would tend to agree with you.
At 7:32 PM,
Joe G said…
In "Expelled" there was a German woman who was interviewed and gave a guided tour of one of the Nazi hospitals.
She made the connection also.
Of course she could be a creationist infiltrator lying for the camera- although she didn't condemn what the Nazis did, which I am sure all creationists do.
At 7:44 PM,
Joe G said…
"Expelled" and the Darwinism-Nazi Connection: A Response to Jeff Schloss:
-
I thoroughly agree with Schloss that "Expelled" did not capture all the complexity of the relationship between Darwinism and Nazism--how could they in five or ten minutes? However, anyone wanting greater nuance and complexity can consult my book, From Darwin to Hitler: Evolutionary Ethics, Eugenics, and Racism in Germany (Palgrave Macmillan, 2004), a peer-reviewed scholarly book with 233 pages of text and 808 footnotes. I am currently working on a sequel entitled Hitler’s Ethic that will examine Hitler's ideology and demonstrate that evolutionary ethics was a central ingredient in his worldview. I, like Schloss, am uncomfortable with sound bites, but I am hopeful that the sound bites will spur at least some people to investigate the issues more deeply.
At 10:31 PM,
Rich Hughes said…
"Master Race, getting rid of the "sick" and unwanted- the genetically impure, which is all tied to natural selection and survival of the fittest."
Oh - you mean like the Spartans and countless other early cultures?
CURSE YOU DARWIN AND YOUR TIME MACHINE!!!
*shakes fist*
At 6:58 AM,
Joe G said…
Did the Spartans understand genetics?
No.
Ya see the Spartans didn't use any science, nevermind genetics, to make their choice.
They relied heavily on their "intuition".
What other cultures?
Seeing there are countless other examples perhaps you could post them and then we can see if they decided using genetics and science.
At 7:09 AM,
Joe G said…
And Sparta was only doing that with THEIR children.
They were not marching around rounding up all those thought to be "impure" and then killing them.
At 11:25 AM,
Rich Hughes said…
Artificial selection (NOT natural selection) has been understood for millenia and employed by primitive cultures in such areas as animal husbandry and genetics. Crediting Darwin with genetics is also false.
Hitler was a big believer in an 'intelligent designer' :
http://evolutionlist.blogspot.com/2008/03/godwins-darwin.html
He was a clearly thought himself christian, doing christian things.
Oh - and he banned 'Origin' by from classrooms by putting it on the banned books list.
At 11:51 AM,
Joe G said…
So skeptiwiki is your reference?
Are you fucking shitting me?
At 11:56 AM,
Joe G said…
I didn't credit Darwin with genetics.
I just said that the Spartans didn't understand it.
The Nazis had a better sense of it.
So as with the modern synthesis- they coupled the two- Darwinism and genetics.
He clearly wasn't a christian- actions speak louder than words.
Natural selection has everything to do with the "survival of the fittest".
The Nazis thought they were giving nature a helping hand.
Then there is that German woman in the movie "Expelled".
I bet she understands German history much better than either of us.
Also there is From Darwin to Hitler: Evolutionary Ethics, Eugenics, and Racism in Germany (Palgrave Macmillan, 2004), a peer-reviewed scholarly book with 233 pages of text and 808 footnotes.-
I bet every argument you can make is refuted in it.
I will get a copy and let you know.
At 11:59 AM,
Joe G said…
Gee Darwin was a creationist:
"There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone circling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved."
- Charles Darwin in “The Origin of Species by means of Natural Selection” 6th edition last chapter, last sentence (bold added)
At 12:06 PM,
Rich Hughes said…
True, but that is tangential on 'Darwin being a necessity for Hitler', which is patently false, as evidenced by teh concepts he used predating the man and his own words.
At 12:17 PM,
Rich Hughes said…
"He clearly wasn't a christian- actions speak louder than words."
He self identified one, which is all that matters. There is a substantial biblical precedent for genocide, so perhaps that was his his inspiration? His antisemitism is heavily influenced by Martin Luther, that prominent Christian.
At 12:23 PM,
Joe G said…
Self-identified?
Liars lie- that's what they do.
He understood that the German populace in general were christians.
So his propaganda was to call himself one also.
At 12:29 PM,
Joe G said…
No one is making the claim that Darwinism leads to Nazism:
"The multivalence of Darwinism and eugenics ideology, especially when applied to ethical, political, and social thought, together with the multiple roots of Nazi ideology, should make us suspicious of monocausal arguments about the origins of the Nazi worldview."
Eugeneics and Darwinism, from a scientific standpoint, went hand-in-hand.
You cannot re-write history.
The book is on order from a non-local library...
At 12:35 PM,
Rich Hughes said…
Eugeneics and Darwinism, from a scientific standpoint, went hand-in-hand.
You cannot re-write history.
Let's be clear:
Eugenics = 'Artificial Selection', Known since the dawn of humanity. Genocide is is the bible, many old cultures practiced infanticide of the weak.
"Darwinism" = NATURAL SELECTION, explains teh diversity of life on the planet, is descriptive not prescriptive. You're using the wrong concept, Joe, so keen are you to poison the well.
At 3:39 PM,
Joe G said…
Rich,
Artificial selection is what allows the weak, the imbecile, the sickly, entertainers etc., to live.
Humans get in the way of nature by doing so.
See Sir Francis Galton, Chuckie Darwin's cousin
At 4:50 PM,
Joe G said…
The Horrifying American Roots of Nazi Eugenics-
"Only after eugenics became entrenched in the United States was the campaign transplanted into Germany, in no small measure through the efforts of California eugenicists, who published booklets idealizing sterilization and circulated them to German official and scientists.
Hitler studied American eugenics laws. He tried to legitimize his anti-Semitism by medicalizing it, and wrapping it in the more palatable pseudoscientific facade of eugenics. Hitler was able to recruit more followers among reasonable Germans by claiming that science was on his side. While Hitler's race hatred sprung from his own mind, the intellectual outlines of the eugenics Hitler adopted in 1924 were made in America.
During the '20s, Carnegie Institution eugenic scientists cultivated deep personal and professional relationships with Germany's fascist eugenicists. In Mein Kampf, published in 1924, Hitler quoted American eugenic ideology and openly displayed a thorough knowledge of American eugenics. "There is today one state," wrote Hitler, "in which at least weak beginnings toward a better conception [of immigration] are noticeable. Of course, it is not our model German Republic, but the United States."
Hitler proudly told his comrades just how closely he followed the progress of the American eugenics movement. "I have studied with great interest," he told a fellow Nazi, "the laws of several American states concerning prevention of reproduction by people whose progeny would, in all probability, be of no value or be injurious to the racial stock."
Hitler even wrote a fan letter to American eugenic leader Madison Grant calling his race-based eugenics book, The Passing of the Great Race his "bible.""Oh no, that supports what I said!!!!!
At 4:58 PM,
Rich Hughes said…
Again - artificial selection vs. natural selection.
Again - artificial selection predates Darwin
At 5:03 PM,
Joe G said…
Again artificial selection is the act of keeping them ALIVE.
What part of that don't you understand?
At 5:03 PM,
Joe G said…
BTW natural selection predates Darwin.
At 5:06 PM,
Joe G said…
Sir Francis Galton- he was the first to use the word "eugenics".
His cousin Charles was largely responsible for his position.
Or do you not care about history and instead choose to try to rewrite it?
You have already tried that in this thread however I have provided a source that refutes your claim and supports mine.
All you can do is point to sketicwiki as if that is a valid reference.
At 1:09 AM,
Rich Hughes said…
Joe, did you go to the URL? all the quotes are from a primary source: Hitler.
As for Artificial selection - your understanding "Again artificial selection is the act of keeping them ALIVE." is not the usual:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_selection
"...intentionally encouraging the breeding potential of individuals who both possessed desirable characteristics, and discouraging the breeding of individuals who had less desirable characteristics."
At 7:11 AM,
Joe G said…
Yes I went to the link.
And yes those quotes are ALLEGEDLY from Hitler.
Skeptiwiki is NOT a reliable source.
I take it you didn't follow any of my links.
Nor did you follow up on Galton.
Is arguing from ignorance your only option?
Ya see Rich, it is as I said- HUMANS are artificially keeping these people alive.
The eugenics thinking was that if we had NOT stepped in with our artificial interference then nature would have taken them.
Just google "eugenics" and start reading.
Wikipedia- your favorite resource- has the following to say:
"He reasoned that, since many human societies sought to protect the underprivileged and weak, those societies were at odds with the natural selection responsible for extinction of the weakest"
At 7:28 AM,
Joe G said…
From YOUR source:
The selection process is termed "artificial" when human preferences or influences have a significant effect on the evolution of a particular population or species.-
Our influence is what keeps the weak alive- and that has a significant effect on the evolution of a particular population or species..
At 3:06 PM,
Rich Hughes said…
"And yes those quotes are ALLEGEDLY from Hitler."
They're from 'mein kampf' and noted speaches he gave. Is there no limit to your denialsim?
At 4:20 PM,
Rich Hughes said…
No, Joe, killing people with gas or bullets is not natural, nor is it advanacing a natural mechanism's outcome.
At 5:42 PM,
Joe G said…
Rich,
The point is that eugenics saw humans as interfering with nature by artificially keeping the weak, sickly, imbecile, etc., alive.
That is just a historical fact.
And the eugenicists saw it as their duty to correct what we have artificially created.
Again this is all historical fact.
As for denialism- just look in the mirror.
Have you read any of my linked articles?
Doubtful.
Do you know anything about Galton besides what I have told you?
Doubtful.
Galton was heavily influenced by Chuck.
Another historical fact.
But anyway the book should be on its way to my local library.
BTW Mein Kampf was published in 1925.
That measn there was plenty of time for his thoughts to "evolve" between that book and WWII.
At 5:43 PM,
Joe G said…
And I take you do not understand propaganda.
Oh well, not my problem...
At 7:25 AM,
Joe G said…
Richard Dawkins was once asked if he would like to live in a society shaped by Darwinism.
He said nNo, because such a society would result in facsism:
Fascists believe that nations and races are in perpetual conflict whereby only the strong can survive by being healthy, vital, and by asserting themselves in combat against the weak
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