Intelligent Reasoning

Promoting, advancing and defending Intelligent Design via data, logic and Intelligent Reasoning and exposing the alleged theory of evolution as the nonsense it is. I also educate evotards about ID and the alleged theory of evolution one tard at a time and sometimes in groups

Friday, April 29, 2011

Ogre MKV Opening Post- ID is anti-evolution

ID is anti-evolution: (apologies for the formatting)


Before I get started, let me thank JoeG for participating in this formal debate. I seriously doubt anything will change because of this, but it could be fun. The topic selected (by JoeG) is either the absolute worst topic to debate or the absolute best topic to debate, depending on what you think the purpose of the debate is.

Personally, I would prefer to be able to present data and facts and compare them with other data and facts and get an actual, logical, testable answer. But things like that are strangely absent from anything involving Intelligent Design. On the other hand, this is a great topic for debate, because a real answer simply cannot exist. This gives one a clue about the nature of one side of the argument. In this article, you will see which side it is.


Intelligent Design is anti-evolution. That seems like such an innocuous statement. It should be easy to look at what ID is, what it says, and then decide whether it’s anti-evolution or not. Unfortunately, it’s not that easy. You see, there is no real, formal, consistent definition of what Intelligent Design really is. So we need start there.

Intelligent Design proponents are quite skilled in modifying, editing, or changing the definition of ID that they are using quickly and subtly in order to avoid being caught out by cold, hard facts. I have personally heard ID described as the designer created the universe and everything in it uniquely, the designer only creates new novel forms of life, the designer only creates things (living and non-) that are complex, and many variations of those three.

And with all due respect to my opponent, he is not a published ID proponent. He is not a strategist with the Discovery Institute. He is not the voice of ID or a leading proponent of ID. He is a loud guy with a blog. That’s it. So his opinion on ID is just that, his opinion.

My opponent’s responsibility here is to show that a single coherent and consistent definition of Intelligent Design exists. If he doesn’t do that, then anything else he says is useless because it may or may not apply to what Intelligent Design actually is. Once that single coherent, consistent definition of Intelligent Design exists, then and only then can a discussion about whether it is anti- or pro- anything can begin.

I submit that, while no formal definition exists, all of the existing definitions and concepts cannot help but lead a rational person to the conclusion that Intelligent Design is anti-evolution.

Printed Definitions

Some say Intelligent Design is a scientific theory of origins. Some say that it’s an unscientific farce. All we know is… well, no one really knows what ID is. Including the people who promote it.

The proposition before us is, “Intelligent Design is anti-evolution”. Before we really get started, let’s make sure we all know what ‘anti-‘ means.

anti- (prefix)

1.against; opposing: anticlerical ; antisocial
2.opposite to: anticlimax ; antimere
3.rival; false: antipope
4.counteracting, inhibiting, or neutralizing: antifreeze ; antihistamine
5.designating the antiparticle of the particle specified: antineutron

I think it’s safe to dismiss the latter two definitions as specific meanings that don’t really apply in this case. However, the first three definitions are all valid uses and, more importantly, they ALL apply in the fact that ID is anti-evolution. ID opposes and is against evolution. ID is the opposite of evolution. ID is a rival to evolution.

What really fun about all this is I will not undertake to define evolution (as my opponent desperately wants me to, so he can attack that). I will use only the words and statements of the proponents of Intelligent Design. They are the ones who lead the movement. They are the ones who cannot decide on a definition of Intelligent Design or even what ID is supposed to say, do, or be.

Something to watch for is how my opponent defines Intelligent Design and what it is supposed to do. With my predictive powers given to me by logic and knowledge of my opponent, I know what definition he shall use and I shall show now, why that definition of ID is at odds with the rest of the ID movement.

The theory of intelligent design (ID) holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause rather than an undirected process such as natural selection. ID is thus a scientific disagreement with the core claim of evolutionary theory that the apparent design of living systems is an illusion.

(my underline, everything else is original) Wait, I thought ID wasn’t anti-evolution. Natural selection is a part of evolution. Most would say that it’s a major part of any evolutionary theory. Yet, Intelligent Design, as found on Uncommon Descent (a blog “Serving the Intelligent Design Community”), is defined as being the opposite of or opposing natural selection. Hmmm… I could stop there. But that wouldn’t be as much fun.

Intelligent Design: An hypothesis that some natural phenomena are best explained by reference to Intelligent Causes rather than to only Material Causes. As such, Intelligent Design is the scientific disagreement with, and the falsifying hypothesis for, the claims of Chemical and Darwinian Evolution that the apparent design of certain natural phenomena is just an illusion. Intelligent design can also be viewed as the Science of design detection applied to natural phenomena.

(my underline, everything else original) This is the definition from the Intelligent Design Network, a group that “seeks institutional objectivity in origins science”. Well, that “disagreement with and a falsifying hypothesis for [evolution]” is pretty strong language. In fact, that is number 1 in our definition of ‘anti-‘. If ID is true, then ‘Chemical and Darwinian Evolution’ isn’t true. That’s what falsifying means. If X, then not Y.

Well, those are two groups in the blogosphere regarding Intelligent Design. Uncommon Descent used to be owned by William Dembski, so I’m guessing that what is written there was approved by him at some point.

Before we talk with the actual leaders of the movement, let’s look at one other thing. Of Pandas and People is the supplemental textbook that Intelligent Design proponents wanted to have kids use in Dover,Delaware. What does it say about Intelligent Design?

Q. Could you go, Matt, to P-652? And this is another draft of [Of] Pandas [and People] with copyright 1987?

A. Yes.

Q. And Matt, could you pull up the definition and the highlighted text there? That’s changed now, hasn’t it?

A. Yes, there is a change.

Q. Could you read the text of this definition section?

A. “Intelligent design means that various forms of life began abruptly through an intelligent agency, with their distinctive features already intact. Fish with fins and scales, birds with feathers, beaks, wings, etc.”

Dover Trial Testimony – A = Dr. Barbara Forrest

This is taken directly from the transcript of the Dover/Kitzmiller trial. In this section of testimony, Dr. Barbara Forrest is reading the definition of Intelligent Design from a draft of the book.

Since parts of evolutionary theory states that life did not begin abruptly and that distinctive features were not intact when a new species was specially created (indeed that no new species were specially created), then this flies in the face of evolution. It is the opposite of what evolution claims. I don’t even think Joe would agree that any version of evolution supports sudden creation and features already intact.

The Leaders of the ID Movement’s Comments About ID

With very few exceptions, the leaders of the Intelligent Design movement are fellows at or employed by the Discovery Institute’s Center for Science and Culture. These notables include Dr. William Dembski, who has updated Paley’s work of 200 years ago with modern, science sounding words and some truly abominable math (which no one understands, can explain, or use (see here for this hilarious story). Dr. Michael Behe was once a real scientist with a real career. He stopped doing that to start writing books about Intelligent Design. He’s written very few papers since 1996s Darwin’s Black Box and only one of them is ‘new’ research, but there are no experiments, no data, no nothing in anything he’s written. Also Dr. Jonathon Wells, who got a Ph.D. in molecular and cellular biology for the sole purpose of defeating Darwism. These are, along with Stephen Meyer (VP and senior fellow at CSC), the leading lights of the ID movement.

Now, let’s look at what the actual leaders of the Intelligent Design movement have to say about ID.

The theory of intelligent design, as I understand, you’re not inquiring, but we endorse that decision as a policy decision. Also, is an historical scientific theory that raises larger philosophical implications, so the two are equivalent in that respect, and they are, in fact, with respect to their attempts to explain the appearance of design in biological systems, they are competitor hypotheses.

Stephen Meyer – Kansas Evolution Hearings ( (my underline)

This is from Stephen Meyer’s testimony at the so-called ‘Kansas Evolution Hearings’. Note the underlined statement. “…they [evolution and ID] are competitor hypotheses.” That fits definition 3 of “anti-“.

On the other hand, for example, intelligent design, it’s not the only opponent, by the way, of Darwinian evolution.

Stephen Meyer – Kansas Evolution Hearings (

Here Dr. Meyer is saying that ID is not only an “opponent” of evolution, it’s not the only opponent.

What about Michael Behe? What does he have to say?

Q That’s part of the argument for intelligent design, isn’t it?

A That’s a part of the argument to show that there is no other plausible explanation for what we perceive to be as design.

Q Which is part of the argument for intelligent design, correct?

A Yes.

Dover Trial Testimony – A = Dr. Michael Behe

From here we learn that part of the argument for Intelligent Design is that there is no other plausible explanation for what is perceived to be design. So, evolution does not have an explanation for what is perceived to be design. This is not true.

Even if we leave aside the truth of either claim (evolution or ID), the point that Behe is making is that one of the two must be correct and one of the two must be wrong. ID says things are designed. Evolution says they are not. It’s that simple. Since things cannot be both designed and evolved, then ID is anti-evolution.

Q Behe says, intelligent design makes no claim about common descent.

A Yes.

Q Pandas says, intelligent design questions the Darwinian notion of common descent. Those are the same thing to you?

A I see this as part of an argument. The — as I try to make clear in my testimony, intelligent design is seen in the purposeful arrangement of parts, and that is the positive argument for intelligent design. But also, a part of the task of somebody who holds that view is to try to answer other views which claim to — which claim to explain what intelligent design purports to explain.

And one of those is to show where the other theory has problems. And I view this as part of that kind of negative argument that, that while — that while — that while intelligent design can live with what data we have, this seems to be a problem for the current theory, as a number of paleontologists have said. And they ve tried to — they ve tried to fix it up, and they propose these explanations, and perhaps they’re right, but maybe that’s not correct. And if it’s not correct, well then this other theory, this rival theory is — is — has some difficulties, but that intelligent design does not. So I see it as part of a negative argument against a rival to intelligent design.

Q And it’s a negative argument against the part of that argument called common descent, correct?

A That’s correct, just as my argument was an argument against natural selection. And when people make claims for natural selection, I have to show why that is a poor explanation for what we see.

Dover Trial Testimony – A = Dr. Michael Behe

So, here, Michael Behe is saying (under oath, in a court of law) that ID is an argument against common descent. There you go, no problem with that.

I’d like to add here, that JoeG follows Behe’s definition of Intelligent Design. This definition basically only covers complex (whatever that is) organic systems. It does not seem to include the construction of the universe or other non-living systems.

This last is actually very interesting. Based on this, ID has multiple definitions. Yet, evolution is not allowed to have multiple definitions (i.e. a fact AND a theory, historical AND predictive, experimental AND observational), but ID is allowed to do this. Interesting double standard there.

Unfortunately, Behe isn’t really our best choice for this. Despite being a fellow at the Discovery Institute and writing several books on the subject, he can’t even keep a straight definition of ID. Check the underlined parts of these two statements from the Dover trial:

Q If we could go to page 11 of your report and highlight the underscored text.

You say, “Intelligent design theory focuses exclusively on the proposed mechanism of how complex biological structures arose.” Correct?

A That is correct, yes.

Q That’s consistent with your testimony today.

A Yes, it is.

Dover Trial Testimony – A = Dr. Michael Behe

Followed by

Q. And before we leave the blood clotting system, can you just remind the Court the mechanism by which intelligent design creates the blood clotting system?

A. Well, as I mentioned before, intelligent design does not say, a mechanism, but what it does say is, one important factor in the production of systems, and that is that, at some point in the pathway, intelligence was involved.

Dover Trial Testimony – A = Dr. Michael Behe

So, while ID focuses on the mechanism of how complex biological structures arose, there is no actual mechanism. Got that, thanks Michael. BTW: I thought I would include this since my opponent (if he has any sense at all) will bring it up.

Q. So when you hear a claim that intelligent design is anti-evolution, are those accurate?

A. No, they are completely inaccurate.

… [snip about 10 sentences, link to original is below]

Q. Again so does intelligent design question all parts ofDarwin’s theory of evolution?

A. No. It focuses exclusively on the question of the mechanism of evolution, and I tried to make that clear as this picture shows. This is an issue of something called the reports of theNationalCenter for Science Education, which is a group which strongly advocates for the teaching of Darwinian evolution in school, and I wrote a letter to the editor of The Reports, which was published in an issue approximately four years ago.

And here’s an excerpt from that letter where I explain, “The core claim of intelligent design theory is quite limited. It says nothing directly about how biological design was produced, who the designer was, whether there has been common descent, or other such questions. Those can be addressed separately.” It says, “Only that design can be empirically detected in observable features of physical systems.”

And I go on to say, “As an important corollary it also predicts that mindless processes such as natural selection or the self-organization scenarios favored by Shanks and Joplin will not be demonstrated to be able to produce irreducible systems of the complexity found in cells.” So I tried to clearly explain that the only focus of intelligent design is on the mechanism of evolution, or the question of whether or not aspects of life show the marks of intelligent design.

Dover Trial Testimony – A = Dr. Michael Behe

So, Michael says ID is not anti-evolution, yet a mere double handful of sentences later he states that “the only focus of intelligent design is on the mechanism of evolution”. So, if the mechanism for evolution is correct, then ID is wrong. If the mechanism for ID is correct, then necessarily, the mechanism (which is most of evolution) is wrong.

William Dembski agrees with Behe here:

As for your example, I’m not going to take the bait. You’re asking me to play a game: “Provide as much detail in terms of possible causal mechanisms for your ID position as I do for my Darwinian position.” ID is not a mechanistic theory, and it’s not ID’s task to match your pathetic level of detail in telling mechanistic stories. If ID is correct and an intelligence is responsible and indispensable for certain structures, then it makes no sense to try to ape your method of connecting the dots. True, there may be dots to be connected. But there may also be fundamental discontinuities, and with IC systems that is what ID is discovering.”;f=6;t=000152;p=3

Whoops… OK guys, which is it. Behe testified on an oath that he would tell the truth that ID is a mechanistic theory. Then Dembski, who, for all practical purposes, invented the modern ID, says it’s not mechanistic. Which is it? BTW: Dembski bailed out on the Dover trial.

Of, course we must remember that Behe had some serious difficulties with his testimony. He doesn’t even know if ID is about the mechanism or not or if there even is one or not. And he’s JoeG’s best argument that ID is not anti-evolution.

Let’s see what all these leading lights of ID came up with they decided to write a mission plan.

We are building on this momentum, broadening the wedge with a positive scientific alternative to materialistic scientific theories, which has come to be called the theory of intelligent design (ID). Design theory promises to reverse the stifling dominance of the materialist worldview, and to replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions.

The Wedge Document ( (my emphasis)

So, ID theory, as its central purpose to replace science with Christianity. So, if evolution is science, then they want it replaced with Christian and theistic science. That sounds pretty anti-evolution to me. And all of these guys signed on to this statement.

Now, my erstwhile opponent will immediately bring up the publication from the Discovery Institute that followed the Wedge Document. So, I’ll bring it up first and show, that it really doesn’t matter to the point we’re arguing here. Here’s what that document says.

In 1996 Discovery Institute established the Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture (since named the Center for Science and Culture-CSC). Its main purposes were (1) to support research by scienctists and other scholars who were critical of neo-Darwinism and other materialistic theories of origins, and to support those who were developing the emerging scientific theory of intelligent design;

Far from attacking science (as has been claimed), we are instead challenging scientific materialism-the simplistic philosophy or world-view that claims that all of reality can be reduced to, or derived from, matter and energy alone.

The Center for Science and Culture is not attacking science or the scientific method. It is challenging the philosophy of scientific materialism and the false scientific theories that support it (more on this below),

But suffice to say that the theories that have supported scientific materialism are increasingly and demonstrably bankrupt.

The Wedge Document – So What (

Note that the underlined statements cover everything in the known universe. And therefore includes the principles of evolutionary theory, which are based on methods, mechanisms, and materials that exist solely within this universe. Of course this also applies to every other science or even existence of things.

If you have made it this far, then congratulations. You have seen that even when the leading proponents of Intelligent Design say that ID is not anti-evolution, they really don’t mean it or the contradict themselves later.

I haven’t talked about Demsbki yet. He’s a signatory to the Wedge Document. He used to own and run and he, for all intents and purposes, invented the modern version of intelligent design (borrowing heavily from Paley). What he says simply crushes the idea that Intelligent Design it not anti-evolution. Here are three quotes that should explain his thoughts on the matter completely.

“The world is a mirror representing the divine life…Intelligent design readily embraces the sacramental nature of physical reality. Indeed, intelligent design is just the Logos theology of John’s Gospel restated in the idiom of information theory.”

- William A. Dembski, Touchstone Magazine, July/August 1999.


“If we take seriously the word-flesh Christology of Chalcedon (i.e. the doctrine that Christ is fully human and fully divine) and view Christ as the telos toward which God is drawing the whole of creation, then any view of the sciences that leaves Christ out of the picture must be seen as fundamentally deficient.”

- William Dembski, Intelligent Design: The Bridge Between Science & Theology,Downers Grove, InterVarsity Press, 1999.


“The job of apologetics is to clear the ground, to clear obstacles that prevent people from coming to the knowledge of Christ,” Dembski said. “And if there’s anything that I think has blocked the growth of Christ [and] the free reign of the Spirit and people accepting the Scripture and Jesus Christ, it is the Darwinian naturalistic view…. It’s important that we understand the world. God has created it; Jesus is incarnate in the world.”

William Dembski quoted, Benen, Steve, “The Discovery Institute”, Church and State Magazine, May 2002. (my underlining in all)

There you go, from Dembski himself. Any science that is not based in Christ is wrong. Intelligent Design is based on Christ and evolution is not. Therefore ID is anti-evolution in the most fundamental sense. Indeed, ID is anti-science.

I’ll bring up one last quote. This one is from my opponent (JoeG) himself:

Why is it you have to attack ID with your ignorance when all it takes to refute ID is to actually step up and support your position [evolution] with POSITIVE evidence?;f=14;t=6647;st=1800#entry183930

So, Joe needs to explain why, if ID is not anti-evolution, then all it takes to refute ID is to provide positive evidence of evolution. Almost as if they were competing or opposite hypotheses or something.

Finally, I know that JoeG will use the same sources I used (Meyer, Behe, Demsbki) to show that ID is not anti-evolution. However, if he does so, he will introduce a major problem for his entire conceptual framework.

If he says that those people say that ID is not anti-evolution and I used the same people to show that it is, then what is ID really? What’s the point of having a ‘theory’ (in the loosest sense of the word) that can be both anti-something and not anti-something? The theory in question might as well not even exist for the good it does.

It would also show that, as seen in Behe’s testimony that I copied, the proponents of ID will say ANYTHING if they think it gets them out of a pickle. They claim that ID is science, then they claim it’s religion. They claim it’s OK with common descent, and then they claim it’s not OK with common descent. I could go on.

Even the leaders of the ID movement don’t have a coherent, consistent statement about what Intelligent Design is. JoeG has his own idea about what it is, which is completely different from what other pro-ID bloggers say (read comment threads). Dembski says one thing, Behe says something else, and then Meyer says something completely different.

Unless my opponent can present a clear picture of what ID really is, taking into account everything he states and everything I’ve quoted, then there can be no further resolution. ID is logically inconsistent by being both anti-evolution and non anti-evolution.

Since ID, in principle, is a process that determines how organisms came to be, then it is direct competition with its rival, evolution. Intelligent Design is anti-evolution.


  • At 7:44 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Nice to see Ogre's "evidence" is a bunch of quote-mines.

    Q. So when you hear a claim that intelligent design is anti-evolution, are those accurate?

    A. No, they are completely inaccurate.

    Dr Behe says it right there, ID is not anti-evolution!

    Orge used the quote but apparently couldn't understand it.

    But anyway more to follow...

  • At 8:23 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Also strange is how the IDists Ogre quote-mines state ID is against DARWINIAN evolution and Ogre takes that to mean against evolution.

    And then he posts something from a DRAFT and ROUGH DRAFT of "Of Pandas and People"- No Ogre students would not be given a rough draft of the book to read.

  • At 10:18 AM, Blogger Hermagoras said…

    Joe, the quotes seem to be accurate and even contextualized. There's a sense in which ID claims that it's not anti-evolution, yes -- when it wants to. But that's because ID self-definitions equivocate through and through. You're clearly smart enough to recognize these equivocations: what I can't figure out is why you don't recognize them, or choose to ignore them.

  • At 11:27 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Joe, the quotes seem to be accurate and even contextualized.

    Dude, Dr Behe's testimony agrees with what I posted. Meyer's quote agrees with what I posted.

    Yet Ogre is using them to say the ID leadership says ID is anti-evolution.

    There's a sense in which ID claims that it's not anti-evolution, yes -- when it wants to.

    Unfortunately you cannot preset anything that demonstrates ID is anti-evolution or ever claimed to be.

    But that's because ID self-definitions equivocate through and through.

    That is laughable. It is obvious that evolutionists equivocate- just as Dr Behe testified to and I have blogged about:

    Equivocation and Evolution Revisited Revisited Again

    But anyway in which way does ID equivocate? Or is a bald assertion the best you have?

    You're clearly smart enough to recognize these equivocations:

    Clearly you aren't smart enough to support your claims and you obviously don't understand who is doing the equivocating.

    And yet you feel the need to come here and try to lecture me.

  • At 6:02 PM, Blogger IntelligentAnimation said…

    Did Ogre really think nobody would notice he dropped the word "Darwinistic" from a quote opposing "Darwinistic evolution"? He is well aware that the ID argument opposes Darwinism and materialism, not evolution. Ogre chickened out of defining evolution, but defined ID clearly, all the while trying his best to feign confusion. He admits Behe supports both ID and Evolution, as do I. In the end he concedes that ID is "non anti-evolution".

  • At 6:16 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    To Ogre and his ilk the adjective "Darwinistic/ Darwinian/eo-Darwinian" are all meaningless and therefor unnecessary.

    That way they can "claim" ID argues for the fixity of species, ie anti-evolution.

    However Dr Behe testified under oath that ID is not anti-evolution and ID's claims are more related to the "how" as in how did system X come to be the way it is- physics and chemistry or physics and chemistry manipulated for a purpose?

  • At 9:56 PM, Blogger Thorton said…

    Wow Joe

    "IntelligentAnimation" as your new sockpuppet?

    Is that the best name you could come up with? Talk about failing miserably under pressure...

  • At 1:35 AM, Blogger IntelligentAnimation said…

    I dont know where the confusion is. I believe the evidence shows microbe to man common descent, and that it happens by intelligent cause. Why is this difficult to comprehend?

  • At 5:49 AM, Blogger OM said…

    That way they can "claim" ID argues for the fixity of species, ie anti-evolution.

    According to ID we see species appearing in the fossil record complete, fish with scales, birds with feathers.

    Accordingly evolution is irrelevant to the origin of species, be that Darwinisn evolution or otherwise.

    Therefore ID is anti-evolution. Both cannot be true. Fish cannot both evolve and appear "complete" with no precursors.

    He is well aware that the ID argument opposes Darwinism and materialism, not evolution.

    What part does "evolution" play in the ID hypothesis?

  • At 6:52 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    According to ID we see species appearing in the fossil record complete, fish with scales, birds with feathers.

    According to punctuated equilibrium we see that also.

    Accordingly evolution is irrelevant to the origin of species, be that Darwinisn evolution or otherwise.

    What does that even mean?

    Therefore ID is anti-evolution.

    In what way is ID anti-evolution?

    All IDists say it isn't and the evidence supports us.

    Only ignorant fuckheads say it is.

    Who should we believe?

    Fish cannot both evolve and appear "complete" with no precursors.

    They can appear "complete" in the fossil record.

    You do realize that was what the quote Forrest mined pertained to.

    He is well aware that the ID argument opposes Darwinism and materialism, not evolution.

    What part does "evolution" play in the ID hypothesis?

    So you are still admitting that you are ignorant of ID.

    Geez OM, you ignorant turd, I wrote about that role in my opening to this debate.

    Oh and other IDists have written about that also.

  • At 6:53 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Wow Joe

    "IntelligentAnimation" as your new sockpuppet?

    Wow tardtard, if that is what you think then you are even more ignorant than I have been saying....

  • At 9:30 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    I dont know where the confusion is. I believe the evidence shows microbe to man common descent,

    The confusion could be that "evidence" which also shows a common design.

  • At 12:22 PM, Blogger IntelligentAnimation said…

    Joe G quoted ID proponents who also support evolution. Although there are many Creationists who call themselves IDists, Ogre surprisingly was unable to find any, although this was the main theme of his argument. Personally I don't hold Darwinists to every quote any Darwinist has ever said, and I do not consider a Darwinist a recist or eugenics proponent. Likewise I am not beholden to anything uttered by some Discovery Institute dweeb in some coffee shop in Seattle. I believe evolution happens by intelligent cause. Debate the concepts not the quotes, both of you.

  • At 12:34 PM, Blogger IntelligentAnimation said…

    An oft cited poll divided views on evolution into 3 catagories: Creationist, Materialist Evolution and Intelligently Guided Evolution. The largest plurality of Adult Americans identified themselves under the latter. Nearly 70% of HS Biology teachers favor intelligently guided evolution over either materialism or Creationism. Yet Ogre is seriously claiming that the two concepts (inteliigent agency and evolution) can not coexist. Why?

  • At 12:49 PM, Blogger IntelligentAnimation said…

    Ogre lacked the courage to define evolution, but explained "anti" in detail. Thanks, that clears things up a lot. He said he was scared that if he discussed what evolution is, his opponent would contest his definition. Isn't that what a debate is supposed to be? If you have so little confidence in your position you shouldnt have accepted a debate challenge.

  • At 2:52 PM, Blogger IntelligentAnimation said…

    OM asks some legitimate questions. What part does evolution play in the ID hypothesis? It is a cause-effect relationship. ID causes evolution. OM says "Fish cannot both evolve and appear 'complete' with no precursors". There are precursors. An ape gave birth to a hominid creature, and a fish came from a non-fish precursor. This is macroevolution. I would hedge on the word "complete" only because of microevolution, but distinct genomes do appear suddenly, often in leaps of 100,000 or more base pairs seemingly at once. This fact opens the door a crack for Creationists, because such leaps are mathematically impossible, but we already know that genetics are as intelligently controlled as all other aspects of life, so the math is only relevant to oppose false notions such as Darwinism or other random luck-based pseudoscience.

  • At 3:26 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    "Fish cannot both evolve and appear 'complete' with no precursors".

    Actually it could-

  • At 4:41 PM, Blogger oleg said…

    IntelligentAnimation wrote: There are precursors. An ape gave birth to a hominid creature, and a fish came from a non-fish precursor. This is macroevolution.

    Nice new sock, Joe.

    And you know what? Hominids are apes. As in gorillas and chimpanzees.

  • At 5:23 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Nice new sock, Joe.

    Except it ain't me you paranoid freak.

    You morons are so freaking delusional and clueless you see me everywhere.

    Yeah baby.

    And you know what? There isn't any genetic evidence that demonstrates a change in the genome can account for th physiological and anatomical differences observed between humans and other living Hominids.

    Genes control traits. Being human isn't a trait and there isn't any evidence that being human is the sum of its genome.

    IOW there isn't any way to test the claim that humans and chimps share common ancestor. And that means it ain't science.

  • At 6:40 PM, Blogger IntelligentAnimation said…

    I believe that the overall confusion about ID is the direct result of a desperate attempt by the Darwinist factions of biology to chase away threats to their supremacy in academia. If there are any questions about what ID is, please ask. You will not get your answers on talkorigins where only one viewpoint (the scientifically incorrect one) is allowed. Hopefully some confusion can be cleared up here.

  • At 6:46 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    The "supremacy" is imagined...

  • At 7:14 PM, Blogger IntelligentAnimation said…

    Question for Joe G: Are YOU anti-evolution? You are winning this debate, as your opponent flat conceded that ID is "non anti-evolution", but where do you stand? Do you believe in common descent?

  • At 8:01 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Question for Joe G: Are YOU anti-evolution?

    I accept that bacteria can acquire anti-biotic resitance via genetic changes. I accept that the beak of a finch can and the variation is due to genetics. I accept that there are heritable mutations that can accumulate in lines of descent. I accept that allele frequencies can change over time. I accept that in sexually reproducing populations descent with modification is the rule.

    I accept what the evidence shows- that genes control traits and genomes influence, not determine, the developed form. You don't get a fish by putting fish DNA inside of an amphibian egg.

    And after reading "Endless Forms Most Beatiful" and "The Making of the Fittest" it was clear evo-devo wasn't any help.

    So, as for Universal Common Descent, I do not categorically deny it- I have flat out said that the only way it would be feasible is by design- I just don't see any way to test it. The sames "tests" that say "Universal Common Descent" can also be used for a Universal Common Design- living organisms conforming to the big IEEE. (in the sky- lol).

    But anyway I don't believe "evolution" = "universal common descent". My references don't make that connection, why should I?

    OgreMKV's references don't make that connection either- LoL!!!

  • At 9:55 PM, Blogger IntelligentAnimation said…

    Thank you Joe G for being very clear about your position. This alone puts you head and shoulders above Ogre who dares not even define evolution, lest he... debate you on it.
    I will sockpuppet (lol) most of your views except that I believe UCD (which I do recognize is a different concept from evolution) is a near certainty. Obviously the only way it is feasible is by intelligent agency. There is nothing in life that is feasible without intelligent agency. That is a certainty.

  • At 7:00 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    OK it appears we have some agreement but I am still looking for a way to objectively test universal common descent.

  • At 11:22 PM, Blogger IntelligentAnimation said…

    I think the best we are going to get as far as testing UCD is genetic comparisons, unless we can go back in time.
    But we can easily test both microevolution and intelligent design. You mentioned bacteria and finches, both of which are examples of predictable, repeatable intelligent evolution. Guaranteed purposeful genetic editing on demand, when needed and only when needed. Even e-coli that have been in stasis for a billion years will intentionally alter genetics before your eyes in 20 minutes every time.
    The scientific method confirms that genetics are as intelligently controlled and purposeful as all of life's functions.


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