Intelligent Reasoning

Promoting, advancing and defending Intelligent Design via data, logic and Intelligent Reasoning and exposing the alleged theory of evolution as the nonsense it is. I also educate evotards about ID and the alleged theory of evolution one tard at a time and sometimes in groups

Friday, February 18, 2011

Burning Books, Information and Energy

-
Some chump who goes by "Negative Entropy" has said that information is energy.

That would mean if we burned a book filled with information it would release more energy than the same-sized book void of information.

I say all the energy released will be due to the material used.

Information is energy is bullshit.

45 Comments:

  • At 7:20 AM, Blogger Eocene said…

    This should clearly illustrate that with these people it's not about "real world common sense"(for which they'd even argue the definitions of these terms for purpose of deflection) science. It's about the ideology-philosophy propagandizing of a modern day decadent worldview. It's about people with issues of accountability and resentment of definitions of morality which motivate otherwise intelligent people to plunge off the deep end of reality and into Scott's make believe world of MAYA(illusion) when making their usual smart-alecky comments to deflect attention from worthwhile positive discussion while all along the way admitting nothing with regards to degenerative flaws in their arguements.

    Again, the definition of the words/term/expression "common ground" when dealing ideological rabid athiest is that you AGREE and ACCEPT everything that protrudes from their mouth. This is why most so-called "rational" or "logical" discussion is anything but with these people. Sad really, but the present failure of our planet's natural world ecosystems is proof enough that they don't have answer one for the correct understanding of anything.

     
  • At 7:59 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Good morning Eocene,

    So what you are trying to say is these people will just say anything (to distract from their positions' continual failures).

    I agree.

     
  • At 8:57 AM, Blogger Eocene said…

    Atheistic evolutionists cannot, no I take it back, WILL NOT admit what information is. The truth of true information as having origins from an intelligent mind is unacceptable to them. Hence these continued rediculous arguements of information being energy, a pattern, gravity, Zachriel's astrological stars, etc, etc, etc.

    Cornelius' blog on the continued use of evolutionary metaphysical faith based insertions is dead on and it's what drives them furious with him. The best tactic they have is attack in numbers over there and making more metaphysical statements one upon another and all the while denying they're even doing this.

    I always love George Gilder's piece back in 2006 where he defines and explains squarely what information is and does so using their own favourity "Intellect Speak" which further infuriates them.

    http://www.discovery.org/a/3631

    The reality is they have no real logical naturalistic explanation on the origins of information without looking stupid in the process and coming off as fools among all their lookie-loo peers. As I stated, the best thing they can do is attack by mere numbers with 10,000 times that in absurdities and having this pointed out and displaying some sort of perverted righteous indignation when Cornelius points it out. Then running back to all their safe-haven forums and declaring some sort of perverted delusional victory of sorts amongst all their brown nosing back patting buddies. And these are supposed to be the intellectually elitest among modern day society ???

    It's been entertaining these past Cornelius blog entries where at times they are even turning on each other in disagreements. I've no more time posting there as I've actually got a real life in scientific projects regarding environmental issues for which the majority of those posters are mere wannabes in a virtual reality world of metaphysical imaginative creativity in the ONLY true world any of them are familiar with, the Net.

     
  • At 9:03 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Thanks for the link to Gilder- I forgot about that.

     
  • At 4:51 AM, Blogger Eocene said…

    JoeG:

    "Thanks for the link to Gilder- I forgot about that."
    ===

    You can also google the name George Gilder, his 2006 article "Evolution and Me" and read scores of atheistic versions of fire and brimstone condemnation where they do nothing more than tear the man up on a personal level. They never once rationally and logically address any of the issues he presents as things he meditated on to come to such conclusions. I'm not really sure how religious he was or is, but he makes only one Biblical reference to John 1:1 showing the hierachal pattern/rule of information coming from a mind and being subject only to that mind and that's it. I love the reference to Crick's Central Dogma which basically tells us the same thing science has known all along that DNA(information) always controls the material componants and NEVER the other way around.

    Everything else was presented perfectly logical and as I stated before and again he did so in that same "Intellect speak" they are so fond of as claiming it for their own, for which I have no doubt infuriated them further.

    He was interviewed(cannot remeber the name of the reporter) not long after that article created such a controversey amongst the world's materialist ideologues. It was also sad that they(critics) took steps to try and publically slam, humiliate and make fun of his daughter who was still in College at the time. And ultimately that's about all they have as a rebuff, is personal attack mode. Half of those vicious animalistic personalities over there on Cornelius blog would just as soon murder the man as read his blog and respectfully reply and correct him if they indeed believe he has made a mistake. Clearly their remarks are not so much as to refute Cornelius or set matters straight as it is to comfort each others gut shot collective consciences with a kind of pseudo-salve.

     
  • At 8:17 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Well yeah- they can't address the evidence and data so they have to attack the people.

     
  • At 5:27 PM, Blogger OM said…

    Joe,
    Is it possible to have information without energy?

    Is it possible to have energy without information?

    If it's possible to have information without energy, can you give me an example and explain where the information is stored?

    if it's possible to have energy without information could you tell me how you know about it at all, and give an example of such?

     
  • At 6:02 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    OM:
    Is it possible to have information without energy?

    I don't know- what's your point.

    I, and others, say that information is not energy nor matter.

    Just becayse it takes energy to transmit, receive and store information doesn't mean that information is energy.

    So, what's your point?

     
  • At 6:19 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    OM,

    Is your computer powered by electricity, ie energy, or the programs it contains, ie information?

    When listening to FM radio are you hearing the 38KHz carrier wave, ie the energy, or the frequency modulated signal riding on that wave, ie the information?

     
  • At 2:24 PM, Blogger OM said…

    Joe,
    If I send you a single photon have I sent you

    A)Energy
    B)Information
    C)Both
    D)Neither
    E)Other

    ?

     
  • At 4:52 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Nope that doesn't answer my questions- try again.

     
  • At 5:34 PM, Blogger OM said…

    Joe,
    "When listening to FM radio are you hearing the 38KHz carrier wave, ie the energy, or the frequency modulated signal riding on that wave, ie the information?"

    In fact you are "hearing" electrical signals transmitted to your brain via nerves stimulated by kinetic energy transmitted via collisions between air molecules stimulated by a vibrating membrane in the speaker of the radio and mediated by what's commonly called "your ears".

    And Joe. What do you think it is that a FM radio "does" in between receiving the signal and it being transmitted via a vibrating membrane out to your ears?

    Now, dare you?

    If I send you a single photon have I sent you

    A)Energy
    B)Information
    C)Both
    D)Neither
    E)Other

    ?

     
  • At 6:15 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    OM:
    In fact you are "hearing" electrical signals transmitted to your brain via nerves stimulated by kinetic energy transmitted via collisions between air molecules stimulated by a vibrating membrane in the speaker of the radio and mediated by what's commonly called "your ears".

    Wet electricity, more evidence for ID.

    But anyway describing how we hear doesn't say anything about what we are hearing. You are a fucknut asshole.

    Do you really think that being an asshole helps you make your case?

    You FAILED to answer the quesion.

    Try again. And there are other questions you need to address also:

    Is your computer powered by electricity, ie energy, or the programs it contains, ie information?

    and

    What's your point?

    Dare YOU?

     
  • At 6:24 PM, Blogger OM said…

    Joe
    "Is your computer powered by electricity, ie energy, or the programs it contains, ie information?"

    If I take the lid of a microchip while it's running, what will I find?

    Where is the information? I can't find it! No matter how hard I look I can't find it! All I keep finding are pesky electrons.

    Can you help me find it?

    Perhaps you'll find this interesting. Perhaps not.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible_computation

     
  • At 6:39 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    "Is your computer powered by electricity, ie energy, or the programs it contains, ie information?"

    OM:
    If I take the lid of a microchip while it's running, what will I find?

    What's your point? What does that have to do with anything?

    Hell if you have an EPROM most likely it has a window so no need to take the lid off. Just look through the window.

    But anyway I have looked at the various busses while the computer is running- logic analyzes and o'scopes.

    OM:
    Where is the information? I can't find it! No matter how hard I look I can't find it!

    And yet it is there.

    But again you avoided the question.

     
  • At 7:12 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Matter and energy are information CARRIERS. They are not the information.

    Neither the paper nor the ink nor the work that went into making the encyclopedia are the information the encyclopedia contains.

     
  • At 4:03 AM, Blogger OM said…

    If I send you a single photon have I sent you

    A)Energy
    B)Information
    C)Both
    D)Neither
    E)Other

    ?

     
  • At 7:22 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    STILL waiting for you to answer my questions:

    So, what's your point?

    Is your computer powered by electricity, ie energy, or the programs it contains, ie information?

    When listening to FM radio are you hearing the 38KHz carrier wave, ie the energy, or the frequency modulated signal riding on that wave, ie the information?

     
  • At 7:25 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    OM:
    If I send you a single photon have I sent you

    YOU couldn't send a single photon. A piece of equipment may be able to but YOU could not do it.

    And on the other side I would not be able to detect a single photon so I wouldn't even know if you sent it.

    The event would be indistinguishable from nothing.

    So stop making shit up as if it means somethng.

     
  • At 10:44 AM, Blogger OM said…

    Joe
    "And on the other side I would not be able to detect a single photon so I wouldn't even know if you sent it."

    In fact the retina is capable of reacting to a single photon, but you won't normally "see" it because of a particular filter that's run across incoming visual information to prevent "noise".

    It's been known since 1979 ( Baylor, Lamb and Yau) that toads can respond to single photons however experiments have since shown that an average of 9 photons are required to trigger a visual reaction in the human eye.

    "The event would be indistinguishable from nothing."

    untrue.

    "So stop making shit up as if it means somethng."

    A simple goggle search would have shown that you are wrong.

     
  • At 10:53 AM, Blogger OM said…

    Joe
    "So, what's your point?"

    The point is that you don't understand the relationship between energy and information. If you did you'd be able to answer my simple questions.

    "Is your computer powered by electricity, ie energy, or the programs it contains, ie information?"

    In fact there are mechanical computers out there (Babbage's difference engine) that don't require electricity at all. So if I owned one of them I could say nope, not powered by electricity at all.

    But "normal" computers are obviously powered by electricity. And more electricity is used to transform programs from their stored state (bit patterns on storage media) into internal energy states that can be manipulated.

    No energy = no programs = no work done.

    "When listening to FM radio are you hearing the 38KHz carrier wave, ie the energy, or the frequency modulated signal riding on that wave, ie the information?"

    Neither. You are listening to the output of the radio after the signal has been processed by the radio.

    Tell me Joe, if information is not patterned energy then what is it? How come you can't have information without energy?

     
  • At 11:02 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    OM:
    In fact the retina is capable of reacting to a single photon, but you won't normally "see" it because of a particular filter that's run across incoming visual information to prevent "noise".

    How do you know my retina is that sensitive?

    But anyway YOU can't transmit one photon so the point is moot.

     
  • At 11:07 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    OM:
    The point is that you don't understand the relationship between energy and information.

    I understand the relationship. I also understand that even given the relationship it does not mean that information is energy.

    "Is your computer powered by electricity, ie energy, or the programs it contains, ie information?"

    OM
    In fact there are mechanical computers out there (Babbage's difference engine) that don't require electricity at all.

    In fact I wasn't asking about that computer but the source of its power isn't the programs.

    OM:
    No energy = no programs = no work done.

    Still doesn't address anything I have said nor does it support the claim that information is energy.

    Matter and energy are information CARRIERS. They are not the information.

    Neither the paper nor the ink nor the work that went into making the encyclopedia are the information the encyclopedia contains.


    What part of that don't you understand?

     
  • At 11:12 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Can energy exist without information?

     
  • At 11:22 AM, Blogger OM said…

    Joe
    "Can energy exist without information?"

    No. Energy *is* information.

     
  • At 11:24 AM, Blogger OM said…

    Joe
    "Neither the paper nor the ink nor the work that went into making the encyclopedia are the information the encyclopedia contains."

    Blend it all up and what do you have? Where has the "information" gone? It still weighs the same, it still has the same number of atoms.

    But you had to use energy to mix it up. You have to use energy in the first place to view the information contained within.

    Tell me Joe, if I have a blank CD and I have a CD packed full of webpages from Wikipedia, which has the most energy? Which has the most information?

     
  • At 11:25 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    OM:
    Energy *is* information.

    That is what you say. However you have yet to provide the evidence for it.

    How did you determine energy can exist without information?

    Needing energy as a carrier does not mean information is energy.

     
  • At 11:28 AM, Blogger OM said…

    Joe
    "Matter and energy are information CARRIERS. They are not the information."

    If I send you a single photon where is the information stored?

    If I send you a billion electrons where is the information stored? In the electrons? Outside of the electrons?

    It takes energy to create patterns in energy that we can then use as information. It's all energy, it's just that we've agreed that some types of energy patterned in particular ways have a shared meaning.

    For example, where is the information about color stored in a photon stream?

    When you look at a red apple how does that "information" get into your brain that the apple is red?

     
  • At 11:30 AM, Blogger OM said…

    Joe
    "How did you determine energy can exist without information?"

    I did not say that. Go back and re-read.

    "Needing energy as a carrier does not mean information is energy."

    How does energy carry (store) information? Be specific.

     
  • At 11:38 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    "Matter and energy are information CARRIERS. They are not the information."

    OM:
    If I send you a single photon where is the information stored?

    What information?

    OM:
    If I send you a billion electrons where is the information stored?

    What information?

    OM:
    It takes energy to create patterns in energy that we can then use as information.

    Doesn't mean energy is information.

     
  • At 11:41 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    "Neither the paper nor the ink nor the work that went into making the encyclopedia are the information the encyclopedia contains."

    OM:
    Blend it all up and what do you have? Where has the "information" gone? It still weighs the same, it still has the same number of atoms.

    Right, information doesn't weigh anything. The information is still there it is just all mxed up.

    OM:
    Tell me Joe, if I have a blank CD and I have a CD packed full of webpages from Wikipedia, which has the most energy? Which has the most information?

    The CD with wikipedia would have the most information. I don't know how you would measure the energy level of the disks.

    Perhaps you have spome peer-reviewed methodology for doing such a thing.

     
  • At 11:42 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    OM:
    How does energy carry (store) information?

    FM radio is one example.

    You can also read this

     
  • At 11:58 AM, Blogger OM said…

    Joe
    "FM radio is one example."

    So the way you get information transferred is to use energy to format some other energy into particular patterns that can be used later to extract the original information from the patterned energy based upon that pre-agreed pattern? Is that right?

    How you can claim that energy is not information and that information is somehow separate from information is beyond me.

     
  • At 12:01 PM, Blogger OM said…

    "The CD with wikipedia would have the most information."

    It would also be the one that had the most energy involved in it's creation. It took energy to burn the pits into the CD that represent the information. Those pits are made of atoms. Those atoms are "made" of energy. The pattern of pits is read back by sending energy in the form of a laser at the disk and reading the reflection.

    E = MC Squared

     
  • At 1:00 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    "The CD with wikipedia would have the most information."

    OM:
    It would also be the one that had the most energy involved in it's creation.

    It doesn't contain that energy. But it does contain the information.

    And it is going to take more energy to get that information off of the disk.

    But that energy won't be the information.

    OM:
    Those pits are made of atoms.

    The whole CD is made of atoms. Are the pits more atoms, less atoms, or a rearrangement of the existing atoms?

    OM:
    Those atoms are "made" of energy.

    All atoms exist because of information. No information, no atoms. No energy, no atoms. Put the two together in the right way- right information and correct amount of energy- and you have atoms.

     
  • At 1:05 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    OM:
    So the way you get information transferred is to use energy to format some other energy into particular patterns that can be used later to extract the original information from the patterned energy based upon that pre-agreed pattern?

    The information would be in that pre-agreed format, not any of the energy used.

    What's wrong with you?

    OM:
    How you can claim that energy is not information ...

    How you can claim energy is information is beyond me.

    OM:
    and that information is somehow separate from information is beyond me.

    Just because you are too dense to understand my explanations just means you should go back to doing whatever it is you are good at. Because you are clueless when it comes to science.

     
  • At 1:18 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    "Information is information, neither matter nor energy. Any materialism that disregards this, will not survive one day"- Norbert Weiner


    And yet here we are

     
  • At 1:29 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Are you saying "Information" Theory should be called "energy theory"?

     
  • At 1:48 PM, Blogger OM said…

    If I send you a single photon have I sent you

    A)Energy
    B)Information
    C)Both
    D)Neither
    E)Other

    ?

     
  • At 1:50 PM, Blogger OM said…

    Joe,
    "Are you saying "Information" Theory should be called "energy theory"?

    E = mc squared.

     
  • At 1:51 PM, Blogger OM said…

    Joe
    " Put the two together in the right way- right information and correct amount of energy- and you have atoms."

    And how do you go about doing that? Can you give an example?

     
  • At 2:21 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    "Are you saying "Information" Theory should be called "energy theory"?

    OM:
    E = mc squared.

    There isn't anything representing INFORMATION in that equation.

    And your response doesn't answer nor address the question.

     
  • At 2:23 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    OM:
    If I send you a single photon have I sent you

    We went over this- YOU can't send one and I cannot receive one.

     
  • At 2:28 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    " Put the two together in the right way- right information and correct amount of energy- and you have atoms."

    OM:
    And how do you go about doing that?

    I don't know. If I knew I would win the Nobel Prize. However mak Planck, Nobel winner said:

    "All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particles of an atom to vibration and holds this minute solar system of the atom together . . . . We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind."

     
  • At 2:40 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    "Information is information, neither matter nor energy. Any materialism that disregards this, will not survive one day"-Norbert Weiner

    Expert- 1

    addled tard behaving cowrdly- 0



    LoL

     

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