Intelligent Reasoning

Promoting, advancing and defending Intelligent Design via data, logic and Intelligent Reasoning and exposing the alleged theory of evolution as the nonsense it is. I also educate evotards about ID and the alleged theory of evolution one tard at a time and sometimes in groups

Friday, June 24, 2011

"Sun and Planets Constructed Differently Than Thought, NASA Mission Suggests"

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Say it ain't so, Joe!?!

Sun and Planets Constructed Differently Than Thought, NASA Mission Suggests:
Researchers analyzing samples returned by NASA's 2004 Genesis mission have discovered that our sun and its inner planets may have formed differently than previously thought.

"Well tie my face to the side of a pig and roll me in mud" (forgot the show)

Strange, weren't we just having a discussion about how the earth was formed?

posted by Joe G @ 5:54 PM  

39 Comments:

  • At 8:12 PM, Blogger oleg said…

    Did you read just the breathless PR piece in Science Daily or did you also look at the articles themselves?

     

  • At 8:30 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Mi no habla, si gracias...

     

  • At 8:34 PM, Blogger oleg said…

    Translation for idiots:

    The story in Science Daily was written by the public relations people from JPL. The paper itself does not report such revolutionary conclusions.

     

  • At 7:59 AM, Blogger Eugen said…

    Interesting article Joe. I read about these and other issues on my astronomy forums. Astronomers are getting a pretty good sample now to compare planetary systems. All the systems found so far are a mess. Our system looks more and more very unusual.

     

  • At 9:06 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    PaparS, oleg:

    Marty et al, “A 15N-Poor Isotopic Composition for the Solar System As Shown by Genesis Solar Wind Samples ” Science, 24 June 2011: Vol. 332 no. 6037 pp. 1533-1536, DOI: 10.1126/science.1204656

    McKeegan et al, “The Oxygen Isotopic Composition of the Sun Inferred from Captured Solar Wind,” Science, 24 June 2011: Vol. 332 no. 6037 pp. 1528-1532, DOI: 10.1126/science.1204636

    Robert Clayton, “Planetary Science: The Earth and the Sun,” Science, 24 June 2011: Vol. 332 no. 6037 pp. 1509-1510, DOI: 10.1126/science.1206965

     

  • At 9:07 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Eugen,

    True- it has been known for some time that our system is not typical. That in and of itself came as somewhat of a surprise.

     

  • At 9:57 PM, Blogger oleg said…

    Yes, Joe, the papers.

    Open McKeegan et al., go to the section entitled Implications for the solar nebula and read the second paragraph. It begins with

    Our results suggest that essentially all planetary objects in the inner solar system (<5 AU) have oxygen isotopic compositions distinct from the average of the solar nebula from which they formed...

    Pay attention to the sentence that mentions "a leading hypothesis."

    Let us know you have learned from that.

     

  • At 10:56 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    "a leading hypothesis"

    Translation:

    Damage control

    That is what I learned from that. That is what I have learned about your position's "science"- good damage control is just as good as getting it right-> see Tiktaalik ;)

     

  • At 11:08 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Perhaps in his next article McK will tell us how to test for "isotopic self-shielding"

    Marty proposes pretty much the same thing.

    Next is the testing...

     

  • At 11:13 PM, Blogger oleg said…

    Joe,

    Did you notice that Clayton predicted the effect in 2002 and McKeegan et al.'s observation confirmed it? That is how science is done, my friend.

    Enjoy your evening!

     

  • At 11:27 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Did you read Clayton's article?

    BTW they still don't know how the earth was formed.

    Yes, I will have a good night, cupcake..

     

  • At 11:31 PM, Blogger oleg said…

    Yes, we can discuss Clayton's article, Joe. What specific question do you have?

     

  • At 4:38 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    I don't know what Clayton said in 2002 but this has been discussed in 2004. What this mission-Genesis- did was to confirm what was inferred via other data sets.

    EVOLUTION OF OXYGEN ISOTOPIC COMPOSITION IN THE INNER SOLAR NEBULA

     

  • At 9:50 PM, Blogger oleg said…

    Wrong.

    If the Genesis mission simply confirmed what had already been determined in previous observations, the papers would not make it to Science. This journal, as well as its main competitor Nature, publish only those findings that are deemed sufficiently important by knowledgeable reviewers.

    In fact, Genesis did collect new information that had not been previously available and that was necessary to distinguish between different explanations for the previously observed inhomogeneities in oxygen and nitrogen isotopes throughout the solar system. Which new information? McKeegan et al. explain it at the beginning of their article. Clayton's accompanying Perspective: The Earth and the Sun explains it for the nonspecialist.

    Go ahead, Joe, flex your brain muscle. Let us know what you have learned afterward.

     

  • At 8:39 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    oleg:
    If the Genesis mission simply confirmed what had already been determined in previous observations, the papers would not make it to Science.

    It was NEW data oleg from a DIFFERENT source.

    oleg:
    In fact, Genesis did collect new information that had not been previously available and that was necessary to distinguish between different explanations for the previously observed inhomogeneities in oxygen and nitrogen isotopes throughout the solar system.

    I know it collected new data- that is what I said, asshole.

    However they STILL don't know how the earth nor solar system was formed.

     

  • At 8:49 AM, Blogger oleg said…

    Joe,

    A simple question. Where did the matter collected by Genesis come from?

     

  • At 8:54 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    From a DIFFERENT source than the data in the paper I linked to- ie space- samples from the solar wind.

     

  • At 8:55 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    IOW it was new data from a different source.

     

  • At 9:28 AM, Blogger oleg said…

    Very good, Joe!

    Here is more complex question for you.

    Isotope ratios have been measured in other materials coming from Earth, Moon, Mars, and meteorites. But if you read the above-mentioned papers you find that solar wind is not considered to be just another source of the same data. What sort of new information do the data from solar wind provide?

     

  • At 10:03 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    oleg:
    But if you read the above-mentioned papers you find that solar wind is not considered to be just another source of the same data.

    Who said it was?

    And if you have a point to make, then make it.

    If you don't have a point then keep asking questions.

     

  • At 10:36 AM, Blogger oleg said…

    Not so fast, Joe. Above, you wrote: What this mission-Genesis- did was to confirm what was inferred via other data sets.

    That isn't correct. The data collected by the Genesis mission were in one aspect quite distinct from the data obtained from all the other sources (Earth, Moon, Mars, and meteorites). So special that they allowed the researchers to rule out some of the competing theoretical models and rule in Clayton's hypothesis.

    I'm trying to see whether you understand that important difference.

     

  • At 11:36 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    So now oleg is a mind reader.

    oleg:
    The data collected by the Genesis mission were in one aspect quite distinct from the data obtained from all the other sources (Earth, Moon, Mars, and meteorites).

    Yes, I know. Obviously you ain't a mind reader after all.

    Genesis = 1 set of data which confirmed other data- different data from different sources, ie the paper I linked to.

    Obviously you have some other issues- perhaps you should seek help.

     

  • At 11:42 AM, Blogger oleg said…

    There is no need to do any mind reading, Joe. Just read the original articles.

    Better yet, read Clayton's Perspective. The answer to my question is spelled out clearly in the second paragraph.

     

  • At 11:56 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Obviously you suck at reading minds but that didn't stop you from running wild down some made-up tangent.

     

  • At 12:12 PM, Blogger oleg said…

    Looks like you need a teeny bit of help, Joe. Here is the excerpt from Clayton's Perspective:

    Variations in stable isotope abundances have been studied in solar system samples (Earth, Moon, and meteorites), but interpreting this information has been thwarted by the lack of precise knowledge about the isotopic abundances of the initial material from which the elements evolved. It may be surprising that these initial isotopic abundances were not already known for such abundant elements (oxygen ranks third and nitrogen sixth in solar system abundance). Earlier attempts were made to use lunar surface minerals as collectors of the solar wind (metal grains for oxygen, oxide grains for nitrogen), but the results were ambiguous and lacked adequate precision.

    The bolded portion explains why the Genesis data were so much more than just another data set. Does this help? Need another hint?

     

  • At 1:12 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    oleg:
    The bolded portion explains why the Genesis data were so much more than just another data set.

    As I said- you have serious issues as you seem to be saying things I never said, thought nor implied.

    Perhaps you are working too closely withn frustrated magnets.

     

  • At 1:14 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Even the sensationalized "Science Daily" article told us of the importance of the mission:

    Data were obtained from analysis of samples Genesis collected from the solar wind, or material ejected from the outer portion of the sun. This material can be thought of as a fossil of our nebula because the preponderance of scientific evidence suggests that the outer layer of our sun has not changed measurably for billions of years.

     

  • At 1:14 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    But still nothing on the formation of the earth...

     

  • At 1:50 PM, Blogger oleg said…

    We're getting somewhere, albeit at crawling speed!

    So the Genesis data provide information about the isotope abundances in the solar wind. Because 99.86 percent of the solar system's mass is contained in the sun, these isotope ratios are the average values for the solar system and thus for the original solar nebula.

    That was the crucial piece of information missing from previous studies. Without it, one could not determine whether the difference of the isotope ratios was due to the self-shielding effect or other reasons. That is the reason why these papers were deemed inportant enough to be published in Science.

     

  • At 3:36 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    You still haven't said anything I didn't already know.

    That is why the pace seems a bit slow- you have been "fighting" a strawman.

    And still nothing on the formation of the earth.

     

  • At 3:57 PM, Blogger oleg said…

    Well, Joe, it's possible that you know as much as you say you do, but it never gets out of your awesome brain. Communication problems, I suppose.

    Keep up the good work.

     

  • At 3:59 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    The problem is all yours, of course, as demonstrated on more than one occasion.

    Good work indeed, cupcake...

     

  • At 4:09 PM, Blogger oleg said…

    Joe,

    If you were so well-tuned to the scientific content of the Genesis mission from the get-go, why the silly statements like this?

    Perhaps in his next article McK will tell us how to test for "isotopic self-shielding"

    The physics of the self-shielding is quite simple. Its effects have been well documented in molecular clouds. The papers you mentioned cite articles on the subject.

    And this is wrong, too:

    What this mission-Genesis- did was to confirm what was inferred via other data sets.

    The data from the Genesis mission did not just confirm conclusions made on the basis of existing data.

    Learning on the fly isn't your strength, Joe.

     

  • At 4:25 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Perhaps in his next article McK will tell us how to test for "isotopic self-shielding"

    oleg:
    The physics of the self-shielding is quite simple. Its effects have been well documented in molecular clouds. The papers you mentioned cite articles on the subject.

    Can you say "photodisassociation"? The physics of photodisassociation is quite simple, its effects well documented...


    oleg:
    And this is wrong, too:

    What this mission-Genesis- did was to confirm what was inferred via other data sets.

    The data from the Genesis mission did not just confirm conclusions made on the basis of existing data.


    Again you are reading something into my response that just wasn't there.

    So whatever oleg- it appears that is all you ahve-> tell pther people what they are thinking and then tell them that it is wrong.

     

  • At 8:22 AM, Blogger Eocene said…

    Olegt:

    Well, Joe, it's possible that you know as much as you say you do, but it never gets out of your awesome brain. Communication problems, I suppose.
    ===

    Looks like your Nemesis here has wasted John Hopkins time on other ID blogs. Here's one where he threatens and encourages dishonesty.

    Professor Smith’s Weblog
    A blog about ID and my other interests


    I wonder who this Professor Smith was anyway ??? As true to his nature, Oleg has a mighty hard-on for him like flies to doggie doo.

    Still one has to wonder how much actual research he does for John Hopkins University since he spends so many hours a day on what his gang calls nothing more than mere backwater blogs. Wonder what happened to all that important research they're all doing for the good of humankind ???

     

  • At 8:30 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    He works on frustrated magnets and wears a frustrated magnet cap. That may explain things...

     

  • At 10:13 AM, Blogger Eocene said…

    Do you know who the professor Smith was that he was threatening and encouraging to be dishonest ???

     

  • At 10:16 AM, Blogger Eocene said…

    One thing is for sure, I've never seen anyone with such an intense murderous hatred as he has for Cornelius. Especially after Cornelius unintentionally embarassed[which was Olegs fault to begin with) him in front of his lurking gang members from the swamp.

    Soviet atheism has taken it's toll far beyond it's 1988 collaspe.

     

  • At 11:29 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Time to start writing letters to John Hopkins advising them of their obviously poor choice...

     

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