Intelligent Reasoning

Promoting, advancing and defending Intelligent Design via data, logic and Intelligent Reasoning and exposing the alleged theory of evolution as the nonsense it is. I also educate evotards about ID and the alleged theory of evolution one tard at a time and sometimes in groups

Friday, December 09, 2016

Science Refutes Jerad

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Jerad says that varying genes is all that is required to explain the diversity of life. Too bad science refutes that claim:
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Evolutionism posits a somewhat gradual, incremental evolution driven by culled genetic accidents. Natural selection, a process of elimination, is said to be blind, mindless and incorporates heritable random, as in happenstance/ accidental, mutations. Dawkins calls it blind watchmaker evolution.

What we need is a way to model what mutations do. That is something beyond the piddly changes we observe. Changes in beak size does not explain the finch. Anti-biotic resistance does not explain bacteria. Moth coloration does not explain the moth. Changes in eye color does not explain the vision system nor the type of eye nor the organism. An albino dwarf with sickle-celled anemia is what we can get when mutations accumulate. Not quite what evolutionism requires.

We need to be able to test the hypothesis that changes to genomes can account for the diversity of life starting from the first populations as Darwin saw it- simple prokaryotes. Only then could we determine if natural selection is up to the task. But thanks to the current state of biology being dominated by blind watchmaker evolution, no one has any idea what makes an organism what it is and the evidence is against the “organisms are the sum of their genome”*
To understand the challenge to the “superwatch” model by the erosion of the gene-centric view of nature, it is necessary to recall August Weismann’s seminal insight more than a century ago regarding the need for genetic determinants to specify organic form. As Weismann saw so clearly, in order to account for the unerring transmission through time with precise reduplication, for each generation of “complex contingent assemblages of matter” (superwatches), it is necessary to propose the existence of stable abstract genetic blueprints or programs in the genes- he called them “determinants”- sequestered safely in the germ plasm, away from the ever varying and destabilizing influences of the extra-genetic environment.

Such carefully isolated determinants would theoretically be capable of reliably transmitting contingent order through time and specifying it reliably each generation. Thus, the modern “gene-centric” view of life was born, and with it the heroic twentieth century effort to identify Weismann’s determinants, supposed to be capable of reliably specifying in precise detail all the contingent order of the phenotype. Weismann was correct in this: the contingent view of form and indeed the entire mechanistic conception of life- the superwatch model- is critically dependent on showing that all or at least the vast majority of organic form is specified in precise detail in the genes.

Yet by the late 1980s it was becoming obvious to most genetic researchers, including myself, since my own main research interest in the ‘80s and ‘90s was human genetics, that the heroic effort to find information specifying life’s order in the genes had failed. There was no longer the slightest justification for believing there exists anything in the genome remotely resembling a program capable of specifying in detail all the complex order of the phenotype. The emerging picture made it increasingly difficult to see genes as Weismann’s “unambiguous bearers of information” or view them as the sole source of the durability and stability of organic form. It is true that genes influence every aspect of development, but influencing something is not the same as determining it. Only a small fraction of all known genes, such as the developmental fate switching genes, can be imputed to have any sort of directing or controlling influence on form generation. From being “isolated directors” of a one-way game of life, genes are now considered to be interactive players in a dynamic two-way dance of almost unfathomable complexity, as described by Keller in The Century of The Gene- Michael Denton “An Anti-Darwinian Intellectual Journey”, Uncommon Dissent (2004), pages 171-2
See also Why Is A Fly Not A Horse?

You would think that answering that question what makes an organism what it is? (with science as opposed to dogmatic declaration) with be paramount to biology. Because without an answer to that question evolutionism is untestable and Dobzhansky is just question begging "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution".

And that is another reason why Doug Theobald's "29+ evidences for macroevolution" is absent a mechanism and also why it fails-> there aren't any known mechanisms for producing macroevolutionary change because no one even knows what it entails.
 


* we are just what emerges from the somehow coordinayed interactions of the matter and energy of a fertilized egg (the environemnet wouldn’t change what type of organism comes out)

25 Comments:

  • At 3:39 AM, Blogger Jerad said…

    I think Richard Dawkins addressed the issue in The Greatest Show on Earth. The genome specifies local 'rules', ways of responding to various situations. Genes are turned off and on based on local conditions.

    The genome is not a blueprint, it's more of a recipe.

     
  • At 10:17 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Dawkins didn't address anything. Dawkins has never done any science tat supports evolutionism.

    There isn't anything in the genome that species what type of organism will develop. You lose.

     
  • At 7:07 AM, Blogger Unknown said…

    Well, clearly you didn't read and/or understand The Greatest Show on Earth. You're so busy being an agent of doubt that you can't even acknowledge the basic arguments against your position. Is that how science is done then? Keep denying the vast majority of evidence?

     
  • At 11:14 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Clearly all you know is shit. And all you can post is your ignorance.

    Try posting some actual evidence that supports your claims. Post something from Dawkins- something confirmed by science- that refutes Dr Denton- I dare you to try- loser.

     
  • At 2:15 AM, Blogger Jerad said…

    Consider the bio-geographic evidence (just one line of evidence supporting evolutionary theory).

    In your front-loaded, pre-programmed view the 'designer' not only had targets in mind but dictated when certain changes would be triggered. In which case we'd expect to see various species and body types to be separated by time only, geographic boundaries would not matter.

    But the evidence runs contrary to that. We see many, many examples of species and body types which exist only in certain geographic locations. This is consistent with immigration and then genetic changes happening only amongst the immigrants and not the parent species which did not immigrate.

    In your view all members of the same species should have the same genetic changes triggered at the same time. But that clearly doesn't happen.

    What is your explanation for the bio-geographic distribution of species?

     
  • At 6:19 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Consider the bio-geographic evidence (just one line of evidence supporting evolutionary theory).

    Umm there isn't any evolutionary theory and that evidence doesn't speak of a mechanism and definitely doesn't support your claim about varying genes

    In your front-loaded, pre-programmed view the 'designer' not only had targets in mind but dictated when certain changes would be triggered

    Wrong- you have no fucking clue, Jerad

    In which case we'd expect to see various species and body types to be separated by time only, geographic boundaries would not matter.

    Keep humping your strawmen, loser.

    In your view all members of the same species should have the same genetic changes triggered at the same time.

    No, asshole. That would be the worst thing a designer could do as VARIATION is the key to survival.

    Look, assface, you can't even account for the species in the first place. So yours cannot account for biographic distribution of species.

    But anyway you are a clueless ass. Dawkins cannot save you as there are others more qualified than he and they haven't said what determines form.

    So Jerad has FAILed to support his claims and now is trying to change the subject. Here is a hint, Jerad- talk origins has pages of alleged evidence for universal common descent yet none of it relates to any mechanism- they even say that.

     
  • At 7:01 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    ID explains the bio-geographic evidence - species moved to a new location and adapted to it as they were designed to do. The paper "waiting for two mutations" squashes any and all hopes of natural selection's ability to do that,

     
  • At 10:45 AM, Blogger Jerad said…

    You say there isn't a mechanism for evolutionary theory when drift and natural selection (and some other things) acting on genetic variations pretty clearly tells you what the mechanism is. Why you continue to say there isn't one is just weird. You might not think that combination is inadequate but it doesn't mean the theory doesn't have a mechanism.

    If I got your 'theory' incorrect then please correct me. What is your explanation and mechanism that explains the historical bio-geographic distributions of species?

    How do you design situational adaptation? What is the mechanism? Is it your undiscovered extra programming which no one is looking for?

     
  • At 10:53 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    ou say there isn't a mechanism for evolutionary theory when drift and natural selection (and some other things) acting on genetic variations pretty clearly tells you what the mechanism is

    No dumbass- I said you don't have a mechanism capable of producing the changes required. Natural selection is impotent in that regard. No one even knows how to test the claim that natural selection can do what Darwin said.

    What is your explanation and mechanism that explains the historical bio-geographic distributions of species?

    Well, as I said yours can't even explain those species, so that would be a problem. ANDb ID explains the bio-geographic evidence - species moved to a new location and adapted to it as they were designed to do. The paper "waiting for two mutations" squashes any and all hopes of natural selection's ability to do that,

    How do you design situational adaptation?

    Why do I have to know that seeing that I didn't design life?

    Is it your undiscovered extra programming which no one is looking for?

    All of your position's claims are undiscovered you ignorant ass.

     
  • At 10:55 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Try posting some actual evidence that supports your claims. Post something from Dawkins- something confirmed by science- that refutes Dr Denton- I dare you to try- loser.

    Still waiting...

     
  • At 11:20 AM, Blogger Jerad said…

    Natural selection, genetic drift and other processes acting on variation are capable.

    Evolutionary theory does explain why some species are only found in some locations when there are other locations with similar ecosystems where they aren't found. This is why some invasive species are a problem, they do extremely well when moved.

    How do you design species to adapt? Can you answer that question? And if you can't . . . how do you know it happened? When did it happen? How was the design implemented? If you're going to explain things then you've got a long ways to go.

    I think Dawkins' book The Greatest Show on Earth is a good start for some of the evidence. Unless you're a Creationist like yourself. Deny, deny, deny eh? Oh and don't let on you think the designer is God because that gives the game away. But what other kind of designer could do all this supposed marvellous work without leaving labs, workshops, equipment, documentation, etc behind? Where did the energy come from? Questions, questions, questions, none of which anyone in the ID camp is going to even attempt to answer. Because God doesn't need an answer. God is the cause that doesn't need a cause. Wonderful.

     
  • At 11:27 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Natural selection, genetic drift and other processes acting on variation are capable.

    Evidence please. Your say-so is meaningless. However we know that you cannot produce the evidence and can only spew garbage.

    Evolutionary theory does explain why some species are only found in some locations when there are other locations with similar ecosystems where they aren't found.

    Please link to this alleged theory so I can see what it really says. Or shut up about it.

    How do you design species to adapt?

    By giving it the ability to respond to environmental cues. Also by giving it heritable recombination of genetic material which aids in variation.

    If you're going to explain things then you've got a long ways to go.

    Your continued projections are duly noted.

    I think Dawkins' book The Greatest Show on Earth is a good start for some of the evidence.

    LoL! PEER_REVIEW is the place for scientific evidence, Jerad. Dawkins is a liar on an agenda- just like you.

    Oh and don't let on you think the designer is God because that gives the game away.

    Science doesn't care if the designer is God, dipshit.

    But anyway I look forward to your evidence that NS and drift are capable. Good luck with that seeing that not even the experts can do so.

     
  • At 11:29 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    How can we test the claim that natural selection and rift can produce ATP synthase? Such a thing is absent from peer-review. Can it be modelled? If so no one knows how. However genetic algorithms model evolution via intelligent design. So that alone shows ID is more scientific than evolutionism.

     
  • At 12:06 PM, Blogger Jerad said…

    I told you what the theory was. And it explains a lot. Offspring are created with inheritable variations. Some variations allow some individuals to outcompete their peers. Those individuals tend to leave more offspring. It's easy. There's drift and sexual selection as well.

    How is the ability to respond to environmental cues imparted or coded? Heritable recombination is part of normal, undirected genetic variation. Therefore, part of standard evolutionary theory.

    I only suggest a book for general audiences at an introduction. Check the references in the book. Besides, if you're so keen on peer review then how many of the books and papers you use in support of your views have been through the peer-review process?

    You love pointing to a few publications and a few gaps and then claim that the whole thing falls apart. A typical merchant of doubt ploy favoured by Creationists who haven't got any peer-reviewed science to bak up their claims.

    Kind of like many of your claims, like the one about the relative cardinality of the primes. Or there being undetected extra coding in cells. Funny that no one is working on either of those things.

     
  • At 7:58 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    I told you what the theory was.

    You don't get to say, moron. You are a nobody. If you cannot link to it it obviously doesn't exist.

    Offspring are created with inheritable variations. Some variations allow some individuals to outcompete their peers. Those individuals tend to leave more offspring. It's easy. There's drift and sexual selection as well.

    YEC is OK with that, dipshit.

    Besides, if you're so keen on peer review then how many of the books and papers you use in support of your views have been through the peer-review process?

    Moron- ATP synthase is elucidated in peer-review and nothing in peer-review supports natural selection and \drift producing it.

    You love pointing to a few publications and a few gaps and then claim that the whole thing falls apart.

    I can point to thousands of gaps. The main one being you cannot test your claims. You are scientifically illiterate and a moron.

    Kind of like many of your claims, like the one about the relative cardinality of the primes.

    I did that one and then you moved the goalpost like the coward that you are.

    Or there being undetected extra coding in cells.

    It has been detected, moron. OTOH your position still has nothing.

     
  • At 4:21 PM, Blogger Jerad said…

    You gotta love it. If you link to any site which states the overall arching theory of evolution Joe says it's not a theory. If you restate it in your own words Joe says you have to link to it.

    Meanwhile, ID doesn't have an alternate theory to propose. All they've got is: At some unspecified time and place using some unspecified procedures some unspecified designer introduced some unspecified design. But specifying those things is a) beyond the scope of ID or b) we're working on those things. Which no one is actually doing. Because you cannot show any active work being done on specifying any of those unspecified things. Too funny. But, since God did it, who cares really?

    Well, then YEC is pro-evolutionary theory. That's good to know.

    Of course you can test evolutionary theory: look for a fossil that doesn't fit the strata it's in. Or find an truly irreducible complex biological structure.

    You did not specify the relative cardinality of the primes. You just guessed it was about a certain 'size'.

    That extra coding has not been detected. It has been hypothesised. But it hasn't been detected or found. And, guess what? No one is even trying to find it. And if I'm wrong about that please set me straight. If you can.

     
  • At 6:36 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Jerad, you are a sad loser. You have never linked to the theory of evolution- NEVER.

    Of course you can test evolutionary theory: look for a fossil that doesn't fit the strata it's in.

    Yours doesn't have a mechanism capable of explaining the organisms tat fossilized, dipshit.

    Or find an truly irreducible complex biological structure.

    We have found many.

    You did not specify the relative cardinality of the primes.

    You are ignorant of the concept of relativity.

    That extra coding has not been detected.

    Yes, it has. And guess what? Your position doesn't have anything tat can explain life or what happens inside of living organisms. You lose.

     
  • At 6:52 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    The ToE:

    At some unspecified time and place using some unspecified processes something unspecified introduced some unspecified adaptation tat just happened to work.

     
  • At 3:31 AM, Blogger Jerad said…

    Of course there is a mechanism: inheritable variation generated by mutation, duplication, etc filter by various forms of selection, genetic drift, etc.

    You haven't found an irreducibly complex biological structure according to a vast number of biologists. And, may I point out, you don't have the necessary academic background to decide.

    The extra coding has not been physically detected. If it had been then you could tell where it is.

    You say "unspecified time" and yet it's possible to roughly estimate when certain morphological changes occurred owing to the fossil and genetic records.

    ID on the other hand can't even decide if the designer/God is a front-loader or a tinkerer. Michael Behe believes the designer is a tinkerer because he thinks that any change that requires more than two genetic changes requires intervention AND he doesn't think mutations are directed as you do. So his designer intervenes fairly often. At least he's trying to narrow down his claim. You're just all over the place not specifying anything except: we've detected design and it's front-loaded. Which I guess means your designer/God started the whole thing off millions of years ago and then buggered off.

    If that's true then: what physical form was the initial genome introduced in? How big was the initial genome? Was it in some soft-bodied life form that has not fossilised or was it in something that we have already discovered? Eukaryotic? Lots and lots of questions you're not bothering to look into. Because, like the Creationists, you've detected design and that's good enough for you. Job done eh?

    But you're stuck now aren't you? Either you admit you haven't got the ability to look into such things or you have to admit that no one is looking into those things. Or both. The result is the same: ID is all about God so once design is detected there's nothing more that needs doing. It doesn't even matter how design was implemented, as long as it's there then God was there and faith is restored. Is that how science is done? If not then why is no one trying to figure out how and when design was implemented?

     
  • At 3:59 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Of course there is a mechanism: inheritable variation generated by mutation, duplication, etc filter by various forms of selection, genetic drift, etc.

    OK, Jerad, tell me how you determined that is capable of producing the diversity of life starting with some unknown populations of prokaryotes.

    You haven't found an irreducibly complex biological structure according to a vast number of biologists.

    Liar. ATP synthase is IC according to every peer-reviewed paper on it. The same goes for all bacterial flagella, the genetic code, ribosomes, etc.

    And, may I point out, you don't have the necessary academic background to decide.

    LoL! I have more academic background in biology than you will ever have.

    The extra coding has not been physically detected.

    Yes, it has. No one can show that life can be reduced to physics and chemistry.

    As for you ignorant attacks on ID- no one is looking into whether or not undirected processes can produce ATP synthase, bacterial flagella nor any other biological system or sub system. No one is looking into it because no one even knows where to start. No one is doing any research to see if humans can evolve from non-humans because again no one knows where to start. Blind watchmaker evolution is a totally useless heuristic and no one uses it for anything.

    And YOU are stuck because you are way out of your depth when it comes to biology and evolution. You haven't the fainest idea how to test the claims of evolutionism. EvoTARDs are more than OK with just baldly declaring it all evolved because they are too retarded to do any actual work.

    Why is no one trying to figure out if natural selection can do what Darwin said seeing that it is still claimed to be the major creative force of evolutionism?

    Get your own house in order before attacking ID with your little girly ignorance.

    This thread exposed you as an ignorant asshole and all your posts prove that.

     
  • At 5:10 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    Of course there is a mechanism: inheritable variation generated by mutation, duplication, etc filter by various forms of selection, genetic drift, etc.

    Jerad, there isn't anything in the genome that determines what type of organism will develop. Read the OP. Your mechanism can only produce different varieties of voles, given voles.

     
  • At 2:09 AM, Blogger Jerad said…

    We know evolutionary theory is correct based on several independent lines of evidence including: genetic data, biogeographic distributions, fossils and physiology. As you've been told many times before. All lines of evidence point to the same conclusion: universal common descent via inheritable variation. And since we know that the variation comes from genetic mutations and modifications which have been shown to be random with respect to fitness . . .

    No proper peer-reviewed researched has concluded that any biological structure is irreducibly complex. You can deny that and interpret things as you wish but your qualifications for drawing conclusions are non-existent. Tell me about your academic background in biology.

    The extra coding has not been physically detected. If it had been you could tell me where it is and how it works. Which you cannot do.

    Contrary to your rantings people are always trying to figure out how things like ATP arose. You can easily see that with a simple internet search. You're just making stuff up to cover up for the fact that you keep avoiding admitting that no one is even considered doing any research into the obvious questions that come from contemplating your ideas. No one.

    It's so easy to show you're wrong with simple online searches. Even Wikipedia shows your errors. No wonder no one takes you seriously. You're so obviously wrong.

    Meanwhile . . . figured out the relative cardinality of the primes yet?

     
  • At 10:35 AM, Blogger Joe G said…

    We know evolutionary theory is correct based on several independent lines of evidence including: genetic data, biogeographic distributions, fossils and physiology.

    Strange that no one can find this alleged evolutionary theory. Genetics doesn't help you, moron. Fossils don't say anything about a mechanism

    All lines of evidence point to the same conclusion: universal common descent via inheritable variation.

    Unfortunately you don't have a mechanism capable of doing that

    And since we know that the variation comes from genetic mutations and modifications which have been shown to be random with respect to fitness . . .

    That is meaningless and also untrue. Lenski's bacteria evolved something that aided its fitness. Antibiotic resistance is the same and nylonase is one more.

    But anyway "random with respect to fitness" does not say if they were genetic accidents, errors and mistakes. THAT is what is being debated, moron.

    No proper peer-reviewed researched has concluded that any biological structure is irreducibly complex.

    You are an imbecile, Jerad. You couldn't understand biology if your life depended on it.

    The extra coding has not been physically detected.

    Your claims are untestable. Mine is a prediction that will be borne out. OTOH you are on the losing team, as usual.

    Contrary to your rantings people are always trying to figure out how things like ATP arose.

    Reference please.

    But thank you for doubling down on your ignorance and repeating your oft-refuted diatribe.

     
  • At 1:48 PM, Blogger Unknown said…

    I've told you what the central evolutionary theory is. I've told you what the mechanism is.

    What is the central theory of your version of ID? What is the mechanism?

    You clearly do not understand what "random with respect to fitness" means. It means you get positive, negative and neutral mutations. For someone who claims to understand biology and evolutionary theory you seem to require a lot of help. All mutations are copying mistakes. You really don't understand the basic science.

    Your extra coding has not been physically detected. That is clear.

    I guess you can't even do an Internet search for "origins atp synthase'. No wonder you aren't rich or in charge of anything, you seem to have difficultly thinking for yourself.

    Plus you can't seem to admit that you've got even less than what you claim for evolutionary theory. No central theory, nothing even approaching a mechanism. AND you're not even trying to find those things. And neither is no one else. Because ID is about God. It always has been. They suckered in people like you. But they don't care. They're not standing up for you here, they kicked you off of UD twice at least. You're just cannon fodder. They couldn't care less. No one is backing you up. And you got kicked off another blog! You're embarrassing them it would appear.

     
  • At 2:17 PM, Blogger Joe G said…

    What a fucking imbecile you are, Jerad. You need to link to the actual theory. What you said isn't scientific and your mechanism has never been shown to do anything but produce humans from humans.

    What is the central theory of your version of ID? What is the mechanism?

    Already blogged about.

    You clearly do not understand what "random with respect to fitness" means.

    Fuck you, loser. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about as "random with respect to fitness" is irrelevant to the question at hand- namely are those mutations accidents, errors and mistakes. Address that or shut up.

    All mutations are copying mistakes.

    That is the unsupported claim, moron.


    Your extra coding has not been physically detected.


    No one has been able to demonstrate that your "mechanism" can do what you claim. No one knows how to test the claim.

    I guess you can't even do an Internet search for "origins atp synthase'.

    Umm anyone can speculate. I don't want stories I am looking for actual research that demonstrates undirected processes can produce it.

    And moron, design is a mechanism. Intelligent agencies manipulating nature for their purpose is another mechanism.

    Ya see, dipshit, the fact remains that evolution by design is being modelled by genetic algorithms. No one knows how to model undirected evolution producing complex functionality.

    But anyways you are just a little cry-baby lying loser. Either link to the actual theory of evolution or fuck off.

     

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